In this episode of the Expert Series, we meet with Ambassador Bob Rae, the President of the United Nations’ Economic and Social Council and the Canadian Ambassador to the United Nations. Ambassador Rae is also the former Special Envoy of Canada to Myanmar.
This episode touches on topics ranging from Canada’s response to the coup in Myanmar, the effectiveness of Canadian sanctions, Canada’s cooperation with ASEAN, the Canadian Indo-Pacific Strategy, and the Women, Peace, and Security (WPS) Agenda, all in the context of war and political violence in Myanmar.
Congratulations on your role at the president of United Nations Economic and Social Council. How has your experience been so far in this role and in your role as the Canadian Ambassador to the United Nations?
Oh, it’s been a wonderful experience. It’s, I mean, to do the ECOSO job at the what will probably be the last year of my service in New York is an extraordinary honor and opportunity to really try to reinforce some of the main themes that we’ve been dealing with at the UN over the last several years, the impact of the plural crises, the disruption in people’s lives, the challenge of creating a world of more solidarity and greater equality, dealing with the impact of conflict. I mean, these are all very powerful themes, plus the disruptive technologies that are coming upon us. So it’s all been good, and I look forward very much to be able to do my job as as president of ECOSO.
Before serving in these two roles, you were also the Special Envoy of Canada to Myanmar. The political landscape in Myanmar has changed drastically since your 2018 report on the Rohingya refugee crisis. Since the coup in 2021, the country has consistently been ranked amongst the top three countries with the most extreme political violence globally. Yet, many Canadians are not aware of the Myanmar situation. Can you please share your thoughts on the effects of this violent military takeover on the people of Myanmar, and also why Western democracies like Canada should pay more attention to this?
Myanmar is a crisis affecting tens of millions of people in the middle of Southeast Asia. It is a very serious problem that the distance, if you like, from New York, sometimes means that people pay less attention. But the fact of the matter is, that there has been a civil war in effect in Burma for decades, if you like, going back to the time of the fight between the British and the Japanese and who was taking sides, where this has been a most devastating conflict that’s cost hundreds of thousands of lives over that time. So, I think it’s critically important for Canada and for other countries to take a strong interest of what’s going on and to try to be constructive and attempting to find solutions. Because, I mean, it’s not just a moral issue. It’s also an issue about the world can’t afford to have pockets of deep insecurity and violence anywhere. The world is too closely tightened up for that to happen. And we need to understand that the regional powers themselves need our advice and assistance in trying to find solutions, and that’s what we’re trying to do. That’s what my report was all about, and I think that’s what our work today is all about.
How effective do you think are Canadian sanctions related to Myanmar? And is there anything more that can be done on this front?
Well, I mean, historically, the lesson of life is that sanctions, when they work, they only work because they are of general application, and all the countries involved are prepared to implement the sanctions. In the case of Myanmar, Western countries have had sanctions. We had them with Burma. We had them before the coup, after the coup, and quite frankly, they don’t do that much good. I mean, we need to understand that they have some impact, but sanctions only have impact if they’re universally applied, If the Chinese, the Russians, the Indians, other countries in the neighborhood, do not apply them, then they do not have dramatic impact. And I think we have to understand that.
Canada’s Indo-Pacific strategy identifies threats and violence in Myanmar, following the recent military coup, as one of the main threats to regional peace and prosperity in the Indo-Pacific. However, Myanmar was only mentioned once in very vague terms in the rest of the strategy. It states that to defend and enforce human rights, Canada will support peace building in Myanmar. Has there been any concrete actions taken in order to fulfill this promise since the Indo Pacific strategy was introduced in November 2022?
Well, I think our efforts continue. I mean, the fact is that the number of conflicts in humanitarian crises around the world is going up dramatically, Ukraine and in the Middle East, just to mention two but all through Africa, there have been a number of additional conflicts that have made life more difficult. So, I would say that there’s less of a focus than there was at the time of my report. But that doesn’t mean there’s no focus and there’s no application of it. We have ambassadors on the ground. We have our aid programs which are in place. We have our work at the UN where I chair the Friends of Myanmar. So we are, in fact, taking steps and expressing strong interest. But I think we all understand that more has to be done, and that’s one of the challenges that we face, is making sure that more gets done.
Has Canada cooperated with or supported ASEAN on any regional efforts targeted at the Myanmar situation after the coup?
Absolutely, I think ASEAN, you know, we made a conscious decision at the UN and elsewhere that we would allow ASEAN to take the lead. And I have to say that I think more could have been done by them to do it, but there’s no point in pointing fingers. I mean, we have no choice but to cooperate with ASEAN, and we’ll continue to do so. I think many of the ASEAN countries are deeply concerned about what’s happening. I think they’re increasingly concerned about the level of chaos, the level of violence, and I think they’re all trying to figure out what’s going to work in trying to convince the regime that they can’t continue to conduct themselves the way they are conducting themselves.
Now let’s talk about the ongoing refugee crisis in Bangladesh and Myanmar. This is one of the most serious refugee crises in the world. In the Indo-Pacific strategy, Canada promises to fully implement the next phase of Canada’s Rohingya Strategy. In 2022, Ministers Mélanie Joly and Harjit Sajjan, announced that Canada has dedicated $288.3 millions to this new phase over the next three years. So, with the Burmese military having a monopoly over channels of international humanitarian aid distribution. How can Canada make sure that funding reaches the most affected and marginalized communities and does not end up in the wrong hands instead?
Well, the provision of assistance in both Bangladesh and in Myanmar is difficult. Bangladesh, there’s still a commitment to, through all of the UN agencies, to supplying the camp. But one has to recognize that the problem is is growing, growingly serious, that there’s much insecurity. The camping is in a place where bad weather has a terrible impact. And so yeah, we see the threat of a serious decline and the well being of people in the camp in Bangladesh. In Myanmar, it’s even more difficult because of the war that’s going on in Rakhine state. There is a war underway, and the Rohingya are caught in the middle of this war, and that, of course, makes their situation even more difficult, and is at the source of a lot of hardship and trouble. We’ve had active discussions with the UN about how do we make sure supplies can get in? There’s a lot more work being done with the ASEAN countries to see if there are other supply routes that we can use to make sure that the goods and services get to people. But everyone needs to understand that there is a violent conflict underway, a war, a civil war, between the Tatmadaw, a number of regional armies, and the NUG. And all of those, that is creating a tremendous humanitarian crisis.
Speaking of the refugee crises and humanitarian crises, the coup has influenced displacement trends in Myanmar, and Myanmar has already been the source of the Rohingya refugee crisis. According to the United Nations, as of 2024, more than 2.8 million people have become refugees or internally displaced. Many of the 2.8 million are women and children and also historically marginalized ethnic minorities such as the Rohingya, Karen, Kachin, and Chin people. As a country that takes pride in its commitment to advancing human rights, what can Canada do to support those affected by forced displacement in the short term and also in the long run?
Well, we have work to do now. I mean, the fact is, it is a critical crisis. We are working closely with Julie Bishop, who’s the Special Envoy of the Secretary General. She’s trying to do her best to see if we can find a way to ensure that there are humanitarian causes, that there’s ways of getting goods and supplies in, that we can deal with the size of the displacement that’s taking place. But I agree with you. I mean, I think there’s a genuine risk that the situation in the region of of Myanmar and Bangladesh will become even more serious, and that there’s a risk that we will not be paying enough attention to this crisis, which is why Canada has tried to keep it in the forefront by keeping in touch with the leadership, by talking to both governments, but also by talking to the leadership of the opposition. That is the way in which we do business as a country. We have ambassadors on site who are working hard to increase the level of communication to make sure that goods and services are getting in. But we must not allow the crisis in Myanmar and in Bangladesh affecting the Rohingya and others. We must not allow it to become a forgotten crisis, because it’s too important for us to allow that to happen.
We cannot forget the Women, Peace, and Security (WPS) Agenda when we are talking about the crisis in Myanmar. The Burmese military is notorious for its historical use of rape as a weapon of war and targeted sexual violence against minority women and women prisoners. Violence Against Women in Myanmar, both in person and online, has been rising at an increasingly alarming rate since the coup. So, what role do you think Canada can play to help alleviate the situation and to contribute to restoring peace and security for women in and from Myanmar?
Well, I think you’ve raised a very important question. I mean, Canada, together with the Netherlands, has brought an action, joined the action against Myanmar and the Tatmadaw in the International Court of Justice on the question of genocide, but more particularly, our interventions are going to be dealing with the issue of mass violence against women and the use of sexual violence as a weapon of war. Tragically, we’ve seen in this situation, in Ukraine, in many other conflicts, we’ve seen the extent to which this is a fact of war. The way armies operate is to provide focus, particularly on women, and on creating terror in women and brutalizing people. I’ve seen evidence of this in my trips to the camps and in Bangladesh, and I continue to think that it really is a very important aspect of what we do. I think the impunity issue is also important. We have to find ways of getting people to be held accountable for what they do. These atrocities are going on, and they must be punished, and people must be held responsible for what they do. I think the impunity issue for us is so important. We’ve been very active in the International Criminal Court, very active in the ICJ, and that’s been a very important part of our work as a country.
